|
|
Post by Zombie0 on Feb 8, 2019 1:46:35 GMT 10
I literally brought up the issue of how 'why not' thinking isn't always that great of a line of thinking.
|
|
Posts: 22 
|
Post by SkacikPL on Feb 8, 2019 1:51:09 GMT 10
Second, yeah, I get that we have over a hundred buttons to play with, but just because a button isn't being used, that doesn't mean it HAS to be used. It's like saying a pocket knife factory has hundreds of tool-mounting brackets, so why NOT make a pocket knife with so many tools, it'll never fit into a pocket. Very strange attitude to have on a modding board. Here the question is usually not "Why?" but rather "Why not?" People like options, freedom, and choice. Player agency is incredibly important and this community works hard to provide that. Pretty much this. Whilst overall the current flashlight design in game is most certainly not bad, especially when you factor that it probably couldn't have been done any better on consoles simply due to lack of buttons. On PC people like having options and modding is all about options and well, optionality. Give people an option and you're sure to find someone who will make use of it, it's really that simple. In this particular case it's something that gives you more control and power simply because you judge when it's bright enough, not the game. I literally brought up the issue of how 'why not' thinking isn't always that great of a line of thinking. It might not be a good line of thinking for commercial products because you'd end up with poorly designed and bloated game, but for mods - who cares. Take it or leave it, it's your fantasy. Same way you can't really bash people for making nude mods or Skyrim sex dungeons. I find them ridiculous and i would never download or use such thing outside initial encounter done for laughs rather than "intended purpose" but nevertheless, god bless those people. They wanted it and they did it and what is more - someone appreciates their work. Just because "why not" doesn't make much sense in case of a certain mod, doesn't mean it shouldn't be made or that there aren't people who would make use of it.
|
|
|
|
Post by majiji on Feb 8, 2019 1:53:59 GMT 10
My bad, honestly I got as far as you mentioning a gamespot journalist and gave up there. Also I'd disagree wholeheartedly; in other contexts it may be a dangerous way of thinking, but this is a fan community for a computer game. Pushing the boundaries and exploring what's possible, to the utmost degree, is entirely reasonable and commendable.
I played the game first time without the mod happily, and have been playing since with the mod enabled. It still auto enables/disables in some places which I like, but I also really enjoy the freedom to control it at will. It hasn't changed the game experience hugely but has been a welcome addition to every playthrough; hardly seems to warrant the analysis you've provided.
|
|
|
|
Post by Zombie0 on Feb 8, 2019 1:58:40 GMT 10
Like I said, I don't see how it adds anything except maybe for the hardcore masochists who like to have to micromanage everything. I honestly believe that once there's a more refined first-person camera mod, there's GOING to be those people out there who will want a dedicated button for blinking or breathing, or something equally pointless. And again, I just want to remind anyone that reads this that I'm not trying to poke the bear and antagonize anyone, or start an argument. I'm really not. I just wanted to ask why so many people feel the way they do, and once I got an answer, I felt like weighing in on it myself. Again, I based on the answers, I just don't see the appeal, even after getting a response; a response which was appreciated, but just not really able to change my view. Again, the 'why not' approach isn't always the best approach. Just because you can do something, that doesn't mean you should. I don't see any issues with brightness, I don't see the necessity in using one more button just for the sake of using one more button, and I don't feel any more immersed by taking away minor automation that was otherwise something the character would just know to do themselves.
|
|
Posts: 22
|
Post by SkacikPL on Feb 8, 2019 2:05:04 GMT 10
That's just you.
Everyone has different thing which tickles their pickle and that's the fact. Much like some people would not find mods that you would personally use interesting or useful at all. This is how it is, there's nothing more to it. Some people wanted to have manual control over flashlight, they got it and they're happy whilst others stand around wondering why would you need that in first place.
Some people wanted to have nude Alyx in Half Life 2, other people delivered and they're all happy whilst most of the community also wonders why would you do that.
You're trying to apply objective logic to something that's subjective in it's nature. People have their own preferences and needs and not all of them are objectively justifiable.
|
|
|
|
Post by Zombie0 on Feb 8, 2019 2:07:26 GMT 10
Well, to be technical, as I said prior, I was just trying to have a dialogue between different perspectives of thinking. I don't want this to devolve into a shouting match or anything, as I keep making sure to indicate because every time I try to do this, someone finds a reason to get upset with me. Anyway, I guess I'll just give up. Good work on the mod. I'm glad people enjoy it as much as they do.
|
|
Posts: 22
|
Post by SkacikPL on Feb 8, 2019 2:24:48 GMT 10
To be perfectly clear, nobody is bashing you here for asking questions. But you're trying to discuss peoples preferences and this will very quickly go badly in every case. Try going on apple forums and ask people why they use Iphones over Android ones or vice versa. People will feel attacked when you question their preferences and in the end that's all they are - preferences. This falls more under psychology part rather than technical one. People pick certain things because they fulfill their specific need or specific set of needs, which may not be shared with other individuals. To question that fact is pretty much going up against somebody asking "why are you like this?" 99% of people would act hostile towards anyone asking such questions.
If you're trying to specifically understand why this mod seems to be popular and relatively well received, i would assume it's very simple - many people on PC wanted an actual flashlight keybind and as such many people appreciate a mod that gave them an option to it.
|
|
|
|
Post by Zombie0 on Feb 8, 2019 2:32:36 GMT 10
That's fine and all, and basically every post I made, I've gone out of my way to say that I'm not antagonizing. But answering a question with something like 'I want X' doesn't actually answer a question at all. WHY do people want X? What purpose does it serve? If you say it's immersive, then how does it immerse? It doesn't make the character look any better, not being able to determine when it's the best time to use a torch themselves, so that's pretty unimmersive from my position. I already said that this isn't an RPG, and that these aren't OCs, so it makes sense that they know when it's time to use the torch. So we end up back at square one with me not understanding why it's appealing, and trying to understand other peoples' perspectives. If this is all it takes to make people defensive, that's actually a little sad. I just wanted to try and understand, but the answers I'm being given aren't making sense, and when I ask for more detail, I'm getting met with defensiveness and slowly-growing resentment that's starting to bubble up. I already said the mod was cool, and that I was happy people enjoy it, so I'm obviously not trying to start anything.
|
|
Posts: 22
|
Post by SkacikPL on Feb 8, 2019 2:42:37 GMT 10
If you say it's immersive, then how does it immerse? It doesn't make the character look any better, not being able to determine when it's the best time to use a torch themselves, so that's pretty unimmersive from my position. You seem to have different definition of immersion. Immersion is the equalization between you as a player and the character that represents you in virtual world. Manual flashlight control doesn't mean the character is not able to determine when it's the best time to use the flashlight, it means that it's your job to do it because you are the character, it's not a separate being that thinks on its own. It's just an avatar for you to control in the virtual world. That logic would imply that character is not essentially you - the player and same criticism could be easily modified to "why doesn't he move on his own" or "why doesn't he shoot on this own". You are the character and it's not supposed to perform any actions unless it's prompted to by you as the player. Any actions that are performed by your avatar against or without your will can be considered immersion breaking to many players.
|
|
|
|
Post by majiji on Feb 8, 2019 2:45:56 GMT 10
I've gone out of my way to say that I'm not antagonizing. Honestly I take it for granted that no-one on the board is hostile to each other; exceptions probably exist but mostly the community here is friendly and cooperative to the utmost. WHY do people want X? What purpose does it serve? As Skacik said, this is an objectively subjective topic. The answer is basically "because we can." Each individual user has their own reasons for wanting each individual mod. As I mentioned previously, I enjoyed the game thoroughly without this mod, and it hasn't made a massive difference to the game overall, but it's a great addition nonetheless. From my perspective, it doesn't need questioning any further than that. I already said that this isn't an RPG In a strict genre definition you may be correct, but in real terms it's entirely an RPG, if that's how you choose to play it. By which I mean: if I'm immersed in the story and characters, and actively playing the game "as though I'm Leon/Claire," then that is a form of roleplaying. As such, it is me, the player, not the AI-controlled avatar on-screen, who should be choosing when to activate the flashlight. By your logic, the characters should choose when to equip each weapon, or when to heal themselves too, surely? I'm getting met with defensiveness and slowly-growing resentment Please cite the specific bits of text that you feel were defensive or resentful, as I'd be happy to discuss and resolve any miscommunications with you. If you have self-esteem issues I'm sorry for you, but we're all on the same team here, enjoying a shared love of our favourite games.
|
|
|
|
Post by Zombie0 on Feb 8, 2019 3:05:16 GMT 10
The reason I previously brought up the journalist from Gamespot was because they don't get the point that I'm trying to make now. They wanted to do X, Y, and Z, and were put off by the fact that Leon and Claire already had personalities, backstories, and motivations written before the journalist ever picked up their controller / M&K. They wanted to immerse themselves in the world and do what they wanted to do, not play the stories of pre-written characters. That's how I see mods like this; taking away aspects of how a character is written so that the player can digitally cosplay rather than play a character that is not them. Stuff like this works in games like Skyrim because that is literally the idea; that you make a character you want to identify as within the game world, and impose your thoughts, feelings, and beliefs onto this blank slate. But Leon Kennedy and Claire Redfield are not blank slates. They have their own likes, dislikes, and histories, so they know how to utilize a flashlight. It doesn't make sense, and I'm trying to understand, but all I'm getting is 'because we like it', and that doesn't explain anything.
As for the list of text where I was detecting people getting agitated at me for daring to ask why in a world of why not...
"Same way you can't really bash people for making nude mods or Skyrim sex dungeons."
These two things weren't really comparable. I understand the desire to sexualize gameplay and enjoy lewd mods, especially in Skyrim which is all about letting you impose yourself onto your OC.
"Hardly seems to warrant the analysis you've provided."
I'm not analyzing the mod, I'm trying to explain why I don't understand people's reaction to it. This honestly feels like a wave of the hand to just get rid of me.
"People will feel attacked when you question their preferences and in the end that's all they are - preferences."
That's the problem of this entire conversation; I'm not questioning preferences, I'm asking what the appeal is, and so far, all I've been told is that some people like it. Why do they like it? Immersion. What's immersive about it? They like it. Why do they like it? Immersion. What's immersive about it? They like it. This is why I haven't been able to get an answer. Again, not questioning preferences, I'm trying to understand other peoples' perspectives.
"People pick certain things because they fulfill their specific need or specific set of needs, which may not be shared with other individuals. To question that fact is pretty much going up against somebody asking "why are you like this?""
You know, that was supposed to be the point. Why ARE people who use this mod like this? I want to know. I want to learn. If someone wants to learn about the US Civil War, do historians get offended? I'm trying to learn what other people see in these mods, and so far, the only answers I've been given are that people like them. My question is 'WHY do they like them?' But I feel like this is just another case of 'you either get it, or you can go away'.
I wanted information, and I was given only a few broad strokes, and told that that's all that's needed, but that's not good enough. I just wanted answers, but the more I try to get usable information, the more I feel like I'm being told to go away.
|
|
|
|
Post by bigtinz on Feb 8, 2019 3:19:32 GMT 10
Zombie0, just leave the thread, dude. Go get some fresh air. You seem like you're just looking for an argument. Intentional or not, what you've done here is basically shit on this mod for no reason, and now you're just going back and forth defending yourself.
It's just a simple mod that lets players do something manually instead of automatically. That's it. You asked, you got a quick, in-depth answer from the mod creator. Let it go.
|
|
|
|
Post by Zombie0 on Feb 8, 2019 3:23:29 GMT 10
See? That right there.
"What you've done here is basically shit on this mod for no reason"
I've PRAISED the mod, and said nice things.
You want me gone? Fine. Not like I haven't gotten used to that over the last quarter-century. Fuck off.
|
|
|
|
Post by majiji on Feb 8, 2019 3:24:07 GMT 10
I'm trying to learn what other people see in these mods, and so far, the only answers I've been given are that people like them. My question is 'WHY do they like them?' But I feel like this is just another case of 'you either get it, or you can go away'. I wanted information, and I was given only a few broad strokes, and told that that's all that's needed, but that's not good enough. I just wanted answers, but the more I try to get usable information, the more I feel like I'm being told to go away. I'm saying this without sarcasm: I feel this is more a case of "It's become clear that our explanations are insufficient for the task at hand. We humbly apologise and hope someone else is able to resolve your queries in an accurate and helpful manner." Having realised the depth of your question I can honestly say it's too much a philosophical issue for me to resolve as an individual, and will leave it for others to hopefully answer. I would also say that nobody has told you to go away; this thread does not appear to me to contain a hostile atmosphere in any sense. I for one welcome our new flashlight-controlling overlords. I... humbly retract my statement about this thread lacking a hostile atmosphere.
|
|
|
|
Post by bigtinz on Feb 8, 2019 4:41:14 GMT 10
They were looking for an argument. Hopefully this is over now, and folks can go back to asking technical questions about the mod or just say "thanks for sharing".
I'll never understand the mindset of someone hopping into a mod thread to ask "why did you make this and why does anyone want this?", and then not accepting a concise explanation. Happens far too often. Telltales signs of someone who's never actually made anything themselves.
|
|
